Interview with Ryan Sorensen and David Carroll owners of Green Rock Network
In Episode 6 of the Mad Profit Podcast, Ryan Sorensen and David Carroll, are buyer and seller brokers who have teamed up to create Green Rock Networks, a Cannabis based Digital Property Brokerage. (https://greenrocknetwork.com/).
In part 1 of this two part interview, David and Ryan share their extensive knowledge about trends and direction in the internet space while providing guidance for entrepreneurs who want to get started in buying and selling digital properties.
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Transcription
| Preamble: Hello everybody and welcome to the Mad Profit Podcast. My name is Laurent Truc. I wanted to do a little preamble to this next episode that we’re doing because it’s a bit different. We interviewed Ryan Sorensen and David Carroll both business brokers in the online space. One is a seller broker and the other is a buyer broker. So very interesting to get their take on the industry. It ended up being a pretty long interview so we decided to cut this into two segments. The first one is very much about the industry of online businesses and their thoughts about the direction it’s going in and the process of buying and selling these businesses. The latter part is more around a new venture that they’re putting together which is a brokerage really focused on cannabis based online business. So really interesting. I hope you stay tuned for both Part one and Part two. Today we’re going to focus on part one only and then we’ll do the next one next week. Looking forward to diving right in. Thank you. Intro: Welcome to the Mad Profit Podcast where we interview active investors entrepreneurs and experts who left corporate jobs to buy or start successful ventures and live life on their own terms. Listen to their stories learn from their experiences and heed their advice so you too can create mad profits and the life you’ve always wanted and now here’s your host Laurent Truc. Laurent: Thanks everybody and welcome back to the Mad Profit Podcasts. I’m excited. I’ve got two very special guests today. I’m actually going to let them introduce themselves. Ryan go ahead, kick us off. Ryan: Ryan Sorensen here from Acquisition Station. Laurent: How are you Ryan? And David? David: Alright I’m David Carroll from DJC Digital Brokers. Laurent: Perfect so guys thank you so much for making the time and joining us on the podcast today. Well I’m really excited about this I have yet to interview anybody that’s hardcore in the space that’s worked with as many sellers and buyers on both sides that that you guys have so very much looking forward to getting into your heads, understanding the market, some of the new stuff that you guys are working on which is pretty exciting. I think this will be a very interesting conversation so why don’t we get a little bit of background from you guys. Ryan if you don’t mind starting us off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how did you get from inception to here and talk to us a little bit about who you are. Ryan: Alright so first I was born in 1984 and then in 2009 I was in college I got bored and then I decided to do some stuff on the internet. I made one dollar on Adsense. I’m like oh this is kind of cool and then it turned into a website. I sold that 2011 and then after that I got into brokering and it’s been like that ever since. Laurent: That’s crazy. So pretty much that’s just my whole life up to this point. Very cool and just for my personal interest what was the niche of this site. Ryan: So the first site that I did was called onlinejobsforstudents.com because I didn’t want a regular job. I just wanted to do something online so it’s just a little basic content site, just monetize with affiliates. Laurent: And it was all the stuff you were interested? David how about yourself can you give us a little bit about your background and how you got here? David: Yes absolutely. I went to business school at Washington University in st. Louis. Spent about 12 years in a banking and finance career ended up in New York around 1992 and then right around the time of the very first internet boom. I decided to leave my banking career and focus on startups. At that time as an advisor mostly and then eventually ended up with an email marketing company that I ran for 12 years here in New York. It was called West Broadway media and I ran that until about 2015 when I decided I wanted to explore the world of income-producing web businesses. And so I started that as a personal journey buying and selling some small sites initially until I found one that I wanted to stick with that’s in the print-on-demand space. It was a canvas art reproductions company called ewallart.com and that experience got me very interested in the brokering process. Because of the buying and selling that I did I learned about what I thought was being done well and in the brokering business and what maybe wasn’t being done so well. I thought I could add some value to that so 2016 I started DJC digital brokers and here we are. Laurent: Very cool and now so the two of you are both brokers but you’ve joined forces on this new initiative can you talk a little bit about what this new initiative is? David: Okay so I became familiar with Ryan I guess when I was learning about the brokering industry. Acquisition station was one of the businesses that came across my radar and I got to know Ryan a little bit. He actually helped guide me a little bit in the early stages of me developing my brokerage and he and I were in touch over the last couple of years. At some point last year 2018 we were chatting and just sort of talking about you know what are we seeing in the marketplace and both of us commented, I remember the phone call very well, we both commented that the phone was ringing a lot from potential buyers of cannabis related businesses and so I guess a light bulb came on for both of us we thought hey maybe this is a niche that we could provide some expertise in maybe own it…be the first or the leading brokerage focusing just on those businesses. So December of last year we made a decision and jumped in with Green Rock Networks. So that’s how we got that started. Laurent: Very cool. I have so many questions for you guys both on what you’re seeing in the online business space and specifically what you’re seeing in the cannabis space. As you guys very well know I also own an online cannabis business and yeah just so curious about the speed at which it’s moving and the things that are popping up. It’s crazy. Ryan: I tell you well about the first one, it kind of leads into that first question that David was saying about how we got together. I actually sold the first content site in the space and the buyers were going crazy for it so it was just like, it had to happen and we can go into more detail about that later. Laurent: I definitely want to totally dive into that space because I think there’s so much noise and there’s so much going on and there’s actually a lot of confusion and misinformation. So it’ll be cool to get information from people that are right there in it and managing it. I’d love to just talk more broadly so I don’t know if everybody out there really understands what a business broker does. Maybe we can start at that high level. What is a business broker and why are you guys around? What do you do? Ryan: Essentially what we’re doing is we’re taking something really complicated and make it as simple as possible for the sellers. I mean people have been running their business for say a few years or sometimes even in the case of an online business for 19 or 20 years and they just need help finding the right kind of buyers that are qualified that are going to take the business forward and hopefully grow it. And of course get the right price for it and sell it in the right kind of timeframe. That’s what we do. And we find buyers for it and we present it in a way that makes sense and takes away all the stress (at least as much as possible) for the seller. Laurent: Got it. I’ve always equated this very similarly to real estate. Ryan: Oh absolutely. It’s a perfect analogy or metaphor whatever you want to call it. The land itself without any kind of develop is just the domain but then you have something on it you have a business on it and then it becomes a website it becomes a business and very similar. Laurent: And then why would a seller, because I’m assuming there’s obviously fees like in any other industry, why would a seller not just opt to try to sell their business on their own? Ryan: Well if they could then they would. David: I could add something to that. I think that just like real estate buying and selling a business is something that (although in our industry I think we’re all familiar with people who do this a lot do this regularly) but for most people buying a business is something you maybe do a few times in your life. So the process is detailed and there are wrinkles and nuances to buying and selling a business that guys like Bryan and I are dealing with those wrinkles every day. I think we’re in a position to help guide our buyers and sellers to a smooth transaction. Laurent: Got it. I have to say being on the on the buy side when I work with a broker, there is structure, which is nice. When you find somebody who just tries to sell it on their own they typically haven’t done the work of getting the PNL together and they don’t know where their information is and brokers have to prepare them for the sale. So they’re making sure that those sellers are putting things together. From a buyer’s lens I definitely appreciate the fact that the package is clean. Ryan: yeah it’s huge. Laurent: Some sellers have no idea how much money they actually make when they start breaking it down especially on those expense lines. Ryan: Yeah, especially on the expenses there. But also there’s the human component and the emotions that go into it. I’ve said this before but I feel like a therapist a lot of time just because there are so many different things going on. I mean you go through the entire range of emotions throughout it. Throughout a sale you got to be prepared for that. Laurent: I’m sure from a seller’s lens it’s selling their baby like some of these sites have been around ten years and they were thought yeah totally understand. You guys are specifically in the online business space correct? Ryan: I am. Laurent: okay perfect so why would somebody who’s potentially thinking of leaving a corporate job to be an entrepreneur why would they focus on online versus brick-and-mortar? David: I was looking at, Laurent, you provided some notes before the podcast I looked at that question and I was thinking who would buy a hardware store these days? You know, the simple answer is you know particularly when you’re talking about the real estate related to a traditional business you just add this additional burden that doesn’t exist in the digital world It doesn’t mean that there aren’t other opportunities in the brick-and-mortar side of things that don’t exist in digital. For example foot traffic all right if you have a if you have a business on a busy street well people are going to walk you in. Well in the digital world you have to get to get them there somehow we have to create that traffic but mainly I think it’s the cost of the overhead in a traditional business. This huge hurdle that you have to jump that you don’t have to jump in the digital world. Laurent: That makes a ton of sense. Let me ask you as well, the sellers that you’re seeing who come to you because whatever I liked about online businesses really the flexibility I mean if I want to work on it at two o’clock in the morning I create my own hours if I have to travel as long as I get internet access, I have the ability to manage my business which I love that fluidity and flexibility. Somebody who’s selling their business right now, what kind of people are they like? Why would you sell a business if can be very automated and at times doesn’t have a lot of workload? Ryan: I could give you some examples. So somebody who’s been in it for say 20 years they just want to change the pace and they want to do something else they might be looking at buying a house they might just be tired of running it. And there may not be anything wrong with the business they just want to get out. And there are a lot of people in this space that are like cats, you know, they want to try different things. They start a business and they actually build it to sell it and then they sell it and they start something else and that happens quite a lot. And there’s other situations where the business is not doing great and they don’t know what to do with it and they just need to sell it while it still has value and that happens a lot too. David: I would say with regard to that in my experience and that may be a little different from Ryan’s experience but I’ve noticed that more than half of the businesses that I’m selling are in a declining a flat or declining position now. That doesn’t always mean the business is in trouble so to speak but from the person from the perspective of a buyer that raises all these questions that have to be answered. I think more often than not people wait a little too long to sell. That’s either they wait until their businesses is beginning to decline and usually if they sell it because they don’t have a good strategy for turning it around. And so part of what you’re offering to sellers is a review of the site with kind of like your recommendation of where you think the site can go, how to turn it around. Laurent: Is that kind of what sellers can expect. Ryan: Typically the sellers provide ideas on what they would do just to give them a little bit of a base but the great thing is that buyers come in with their own perspective and their own plans and their own strengths and resources. We try to do is match them up so that it’s a good fit and the best potential for success. Laurent: Excellent that makes sense. You guys have been in the space for a while what are some of the trends like what are some of the hottest monetization methods right now that you’re seeing that are really driving the higher multiples. I know a few years ago everybody wanted an FBA site. What’s the latest? What’s happening right now in the market you want to grab? David: This is my perspective and Ryan might have a different one but I see right now it’s hard to say what’s hot. I would say all of the major monetization strategies have their own unique challenges right now. Amazon FBA the Amazon platform is notoriously fickle concerns you know people get concerned about you know being at the exposed to the whims of Amazon’s policies. It’s hard to resell something profitably on a long term basis so you need a unique branded product that costs money that takes talent which is a hurdle in the 1commerce space. In the content space you have Google that is fickle, you’ve got all kinds of stuff going on with SEO strategies where it can be very difficult to manage changes in the Google algorithm. That particular expertise is required to do that well. And then in the in the software business the so-called SaaS industry there’s a lot of expertise required there, as well and those businesses are usually more stable but it takes an awful lot more to build a business that’s serving a need in that that space. I’d say it’s hard to say what’s really hot right now. All of those monetization strategies require a different skill set. Ryan: I agree. They’re all hot it just depends on what people are getting into. Like there’s always going to be some kind of trend. Like Amazon FBA was a huge thing and content sites had their heyday but they’re still very popular and I think it just really comes down to the vertical that’s hot like cannabis or about five six years ago when vaping first came out was really hot online. The of course you had info products that were really huge back in the 2008 right. Around there you guys all remember that that phase where we right in the thick of email marketing. but right now it’s just pretty much everything is go I mean everybody’s just come on crazy it’s still Wild West Laurent: I think that’s a really good point. I think the vertical is more important than the monetization strategy. What other verticals that you would stay away from? or that you would double down on right now? Ryan: I would stay away from I mean obviously there’s the ones that most buyers stay away from: gambling, adult industry, the ones where it’s like you can make a ton of money in those but they’re always gonna have some risk involved. If you look at cannabis and of course we’re gonna go into it later but it is looking like it’s gonna be legalized federally at least here in in the US over the next maybe five years if all goes well and that’s something that’s a wave that’s forming that hasn’t hit its peak yet. I think building video-content, Facebook onboard YouTube is always going to be popular. It will continue to grow essentially because we’re just trying to get people’s attention and that’s what everybody is competing for in business and in general. Video content, that’s easy to consume and that is valuable and good information is always going good. Those are just a couple of things that pop up. Laurent: Is there stuff you’d stay away from? I had heard from other people that things like pets are a bit saturated. Fitness is saturated. Ryan: They’re always saturated but there’s always gonna be money in it if you can just carve a little piece. Laurent: That’s true. I think I told you guys I used to own an e-commerce site that sold pillows and it was crazy from the moment I bought it to the moment I sold it the amount of individuals that came into this space between my pillow and Amazon starting to create their own brand of pillows. It was astronomical how quickly the market flipped on me, that was interesting. Ryan: You take something as silly as pillows and you just create this cool brand some good marketing behind it and you got yourself an amazing business. I have a couple other examples Dollar Shave Club – he’s just so shaving and they blew it off that business because I saw it from the beginning and I paid attention their marketing strategy their little like Reader thing that they give for the for the bathroom. It’s an awesome digest and that was really cool and so I paid attention to that and in their subscription model and priced it right and that was great/ And now another one that I’ve been seeing quite a lot for is mattresses. In the last couple years they took mattresses and they have some cool marketing with the eggs and funny Youtube stuff. And then also sunglasses. I’m not gonna say specifically name them because I’m not trying to promote any kind of brand but you take sunglasses and you make them good quality and you have a good marketing campaign and you just take it over. Old vertical and you can still dominate it’s. Laurent: So funny that you brought all three of those up because there was that one big company that came out and was like you said really creative on their marketing and then the amount of knockoffs they came out like Dollar Shave Club there’s maybe 12 or 15 of them out there that now do the same. Ryan: Just shaving right! it’s like they didn’t reinvent the wheel I just had really good marketing and they built a good brand so yeah and now they’re fighting with a bunch of you know it’s a random price Laurent: Very good. Talking about pricing what are you guys seeing right now on the multiples in terms of what’s trending? Are they going up are they going down? Are they kind of flat right now? Are they still kind of out 3x David: I’ll give you my perspective. The conventional wisdom is that they will go up because of the demand side. I think I’m seeing that in my transactions but honestly so far let’s say the last 12 months I’d say it’s a pretty modest increase. I’m not seeing significant growth but yeah they are they do hover around as you mentioned 30 months to two and a half years. it depends on a lot of other factors I’d say they’re there they’re hovering and increasing slightly. Ryan: I found the same thing as well as that you know obviously over the last few years they’ve been increasing because there’s been a lot more buyers in the space a lot more retail buyers; people that have come from the offline world (real estate and traditional investments) coming online and then of course supply on the south side is always going to be pretty low in terms of quality stuff so the prices have remained pretty steady. I was going to go back to something else from the last question, is that other languages and other international markets are starting to come up in the in the online space you know like in Latin America or in Europe with other languages sites are making money and the valuations are still pretty low in terms of just being able to get in and get a good site that’s making good money that’s been around for a while. So look at international markets as well in other languages. David: And Laurent I’d like to just give a plug for acquisition station because acquisition station does specialize somewhat informally dabble in some of them. Ryan: We’ve sold a number of foreign language sites and international stuff. Thanks dude Laurent: In your view does a buyer need to be able to speak that language to be successful and I’m sure it’s an advantage but some of these. Ryan: oh yeah most of them we try to make it like English and North American market friendly. Just to be able to take it over have either a bilingual team or have some team on there that you can just be able to keep it running. Laurent: Got it perfect. Okay kind of closing off the business broker side what do you recommend for someone who is selling a business what they should look for in finding the right broker for them (other than just picking your brokerage which is the best thing you can do clearly). Ryan: When it comes down to it, you just want to be able to work with them well. Like have a good working relationship with them and obviously a good track record and being able to match them up to the right kind of buyer so those are a few things that you want. Of course you want to get good terms – you don’t want to get it screwed on the Commission which by the way industry standards have any word from like 10 to flexible. We try not to undercut it too much but when it comes down to it you want to make it a good transaction for everybody involved and everybody be motivated that’s my perspective what do you think David? David: yeah that’s really…that’s a tricky one because I look I’m thinking about the transactions that I’ve done that went well I had a good connection with the buyer or seller I do work with both buyers and sellers which maybe we could talk about a little bit later Laurent but having that understanding of their business understanding their personal needs. A lot of the businesses that we represent are relatively small and people are selling them or buying them for important personal reasons like they’re getting married or having a baby or moving somewhere and so that transaction is really important to them. I think as a broker understanding the reason why someone’s buying or selling is just as important as getting them the best. Laurent: That’s huge. This is probably one of the biggest decisions of their lives…buying a business is not a small investment for many (other than their home). It takes up a ton of time, in a lot of sense you want to make sure you have the right relationship with your broker and that they’re there guiding you in the right way so that you’re happy by the time it’s done. It makes a lot of sense. This segways very well into kind of my next line of questioning. Somebody who wants to get into the space, maybe somebody who’s in corporate right now and wants to create a side hustle for themselves or is really fed up and just wants to leave and start their own business. Recommendations for them on where to start? It can be anything from niche to monetization method somebody maybe doesn’t have a ton of experience in the space where do they begin. David: My experience with that is it sort of depends. Here’s how I approach them. A lot people come into the business and they say “hey I just want to buy a profit-making digital business” and that’s their criteria. That’s very difficult to work with as a buyer’s broker because we look we look for specific types of businesses so when I get those kinds of opportunities presented to me what I try to do is understand the person and their personal passions and expertise because usually people will be very successful at businesses that they understand. So if I can figure out what their hobbies might be, what their business background might be, that usually helps guide me to a vertical that might make sense for that person. Beyond that I would say when people are starting out I find in terms of monetization strategy I like to guide people towards content businesses first because they are simpler to manage, simpler to understand. It’s not to say that there aren’t risks that are very significant that take talent and skill to manage but it’s easier. I think to start out in a content business then commerce business or certainly a software business there’s definitely less I would say overhead on a Content business and an e-commerce business. You’re not managing inventory and in most cases by an extremely high volumes. Laurent: You’ve actually said this a couple of times and I don’t think we’ve necessarily addressed it so buyer side versus seller side brokering. I think you do both but can you explain a little bit the difference between a buyer side broker versus a seller broker. David: Yes so if you think of the analogy to real estate, for example, a traditional real estate brokerage is a sell side brokerage. They primarily represent the interests of the seller (the owner) of the real estate. In the case of our industry, a seller broker we’re focused on resenting that business to the marketplace in a way that’s that makes it look good and attractive to potential buyers in our market. Part of the reason that I started DJC digital brokers and focused on buyer side is because when I first got into the industry I was a buyer myself and I felt a little bit, what’s the word, I don’t want to say underappreciated, but I just felt like the industry focused so much on the seller side that the buyer is left to figure everything out for themselves. I thought maybe I could offer some services to buyers that would just help them and empower them a little bit. One of the things that I developed is an outbound search process that I offer to buyers that allows them to find businesses that might not be on the market and we try to convert those opportunities to listings on behalf of the buyers. That just gives the buyer a little more control. It can be a difficult process and it’s not always successful but it’s a process that allows you to find the business that you think you want. What we do is we find a seed company, a business or a website that looks like the business that the buyer would like to purchase and then we identify all the other competitors in that space and do an outreach to them. There’s a surprisingly high response rate to that process but that gives the buyer a sense of control and so buy-side brokers are focused on serving the needs of the buyer. Laurent: Got it and it makes a ton of sense when you consider that most people will only buy one business. So they don’t have the experience of how to negotiate, what is the buying process and having somebody in your corner that walks you through it. I just went through a six-month negotiation on a deal that I ended up walking away from and as I was going through that process there were so many things that came up. Not that the broker was doing anything wrong but it was clear that his fiduciary responsibilities were to the seller. there were things I’m like hey you can’t really call that profit, you can’t really go ahead and remove those expenses. I was lucky enough to have had that experience but somebody else probably would have left a lot of money on the table had they not that somebody in the corner to toss . David: I’ll give you I’ll give you a specific example addressing what you just mentioned. In our industry you guys are both very familiar with this, the listeners may not be but we have the concept of sellers discretionary earnings (SDE) and usually the seller and the sellers’ broker are calculating what I like to call their proposal. It’s not a definitive calculation. This is the dollars the seller says okay I have a business, there are some expenses in this business that the new buyer would not have to incur because maybe it’s my rent on my office, or I paid myself a salary or I wouldn’t have to pay someone to run this business in the future. So you’d make all those adjustments. Well sometimes those adjustments can be just what’s the word… discretionary… a little aggressive. So as a buyers broker one of the things that I do and I try to tell my buyers just relax a little bit when they see these kinds of aggressive SDE adjustments and what we do is propose an SDE calculation of our own. So that’s a very helpful exercise. It simply says okay mister seller, you think this expense doesn’t carry forward to the buyer but we have a different view. We think maybe we will have to incur some of these expenses and so our offer will be based on that calculation. Laurent: You get aggressive and then there’s a middle line where everybody negotiates. Ryan: There’s always a middle line and what I do on the seller side is I try to prep them that buyers are gonna be doing that and they know going into it that there’s going to be an interpretation of that and because it’s gonna vary between all the all the different buyers. So yeah they’re prepped and hopefully you’re able to find a middle ground there. Laurent: Very good. so going back to somebody brand-new to the space that’s looking to dive in. We talked about a monetization method that you guys would suggest. What’s kind of the entry-level price tag of a site? Ryan: It very much depends on what the SDE is but something like twenty to thirty thousand. Something that’s making anywhere from say a thousand to fifteen hundred bucks a month. I don’t sell anything typically under a thousand bucks a month and try to get something that’s over a year old at least just so you have an entire year so you can see all the different seasons of the business. At least one year worth and so that’s kind of a good entry point (twenty to thirty thousand). Laurent: There’s obviously a ton of competition at that lower level there so those sites tend to sell very quickly so a buyer needs to kind of be ready and have all their ducks in a row in my experience otherwise they’re losing out on some of those best opportunities that will sell quickly. I’ve seen some sell in a day, it’s pretty crazy. David: That’s why you need a buy side broker. The benefit of what I’ve done of being able to automate a process to go out and find these businesses is that there is no one else knocking on that door, so you have a little bit of time to tell that potential seller, we have a buyer for you, get your numbers together and we’ll evaluate versus that high competition that happens at the lower end of the market place on our market deals. Laurent: Back to somebody startin off, what niches would you say they should look at? Content sites make it easy. Are there verticals other than cannabis that they should be looking at? Ryan: Personal interest like Dave was saying is more important than people realize even if you got something that’s pretty passive. I wouldn’t say there’s even a truly passive online business because you have to be involved in some capacity. You can’t just let it sit, you know. You have to be personally invested in some capacity. You’re going to want to check up on it, you’re going to want to talk to your people working on it and just make sure everything is good. That’s just one thing to consider but obviously there’s so many different factors when it comes down to it. You just have to have your ducks in a row know before you make the purchase. Laurent: Is there anything that people should avoid when they’re looking at sites? You guys talked a little bit about sites that are coming on the market that are aggressively dropping in terms of traffic. What are some of the big red flags? Ryan: One red flag that I see is that if I suddenly get a certain type of business listing or lead and then a bunch of other ones come in say three or four. If I get one of them, that’s kind of random, that’s cool. Somebody selling one of these sites, let’s just say like a gaming forum or something, and then say I get like five gaming forum leads in the next couple weeks. Something went down. You have to find out if there’s an overall problem with maybe regulation say Ecigarets and vaping. A few years ago these were hot and then everyone that was in the e-commerce vaping space just got screwed bad based on the ruling federally. So if you see a little bit of movement in the market with some leads then something might have gone down. You have to look at the overall vertical. Laurent: ok so traffic going down like you said in an industry, laws changing, things like that are red flags. Anything else that you recommend just staying away from? David: I think a lot of this is instinctual. I’m thinking about examples of where I may have guided someone away. What Ryan said is absolutely true when there’s something in a niche and of course Ryan and I are both dealing with businesses in many niches but we aren’t experts in every niche so, I end up doing what Ryan was just alluding to, the research when I see multiple businesses and a particular niche all coming online at the same time. I’ve got to do some research but I don’t know that there’s any other broad-based things to look out for more specifically. I think to the buyer if there’s a mismatch between the buyer’s skills and whatever the niche requires for success, that’s really for me that’s the red flag. SEO is an interesting one because in order to be successful at SEO you’ve really got to be on top of the trends all the time and while I know I mentioned a moment ago that I would recommend newbies start out in the content business, the big asterisks there is you have to (depending on the site) you really have to understand how your site is exposed to the vagaries of the SEO at that time and that can change so it’s for me it’s more about the match between the buyers skills and the skills required to be successful in that niche got it. Laurent: OK, we’re gonna end the first half of the interview at this point and we’ll get the rest of the interview in part 2 which will happen next week. I hope you enjoyed it so far thanks for staying tuned and we’ll see you next week Outro: Thank you for joining us on this episode of the Mad Profit Podcast. 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